Necromancer Balance

[webwalker]

Do you run a skelemancer? 
Are the skeleton wrriors able to meet your expectations?
Do you build some other type of necromancer?
Your opinions please:  If you have a Necro, what are his max (30 point) skills and his level?

[ZenPdH]

I don't like skells or any other mionions (more than 2 or 3) which are the base for a char.
I want to kill the enemies 'by my own'.

I have a p&b nec lvl96 and a prayer merc.
Max:
Teeth, bone spirit = syns -> bone spear (90 points)
Poison dagger, poison explosion = syns -> poinson nova (90 points)

Support:
Golem mastery (1 point)
All golems together 20 points for 2 golems castable (mostly 2 clay golems)
Summon resist (1 point)

Bone wall, bone prison = syns -> bone armor (all the rest)


I am not a donator, so i don't know if u want to know my opinion about that, because i have allready a high-lvl-char and i don't know if there are some more changes for the new realm.
(Moderator: Your comments are completly welcome!)

PS: I've never had a skellimancer, so i don't know anything about their actuall strength/weakness

[doom86]

I dont have any skelemancers this season, but some versions ago i did, they say since back then the skeletons have been nerfed, and for me they were already weak, i used them and poison nova to get some corpses to explode and kill the rest, so basically the skellies were a meat shield (more like "bone shield" xD) to work as protection and take the hits for me, so i could spam my nova/corpse explosion. I hope that helps ^^

DooM

[MusoNZ]

Hi all

I think necros (either in vanilla or in CE) are great - just about all my characters have been necros.

I play summoning necro. I try and summon as many things as I can. I have a level 40 necro at the moment act 5 normal CE, and he has um ... skeletons at skill 4, skelly mages at 22, and revives at 7. On top of this, I have about +4 or +5 to all skills. In terms of personnel, that means 1 merc, 1 golem, 4 skellys, 11 mages and 8 revives.

the skellys are useful in all situations in normal diff except the tough monsters - Andariel, duriel, and diablo. Plus the skellys die really quickly against the lava monsters.

I'm planning to add more points to golems and to revives, and also to skeleton mastery.

The other skills points are in bone spear/spirit and in various curses - AD at start, then decrepify later. sometimes use Corpse explosion in crowded areas.

Hope this helps!

Mark.

[T1001]

mages at lvl 11....?

you kwow that they will complete useless in cgs, mabey in lr?

[DrowElf]

Do you run a skelemancer? 
Are the skeleton wrriors able to meet your expectations?
Do you build some other type of necromancer?
Your opinions please:  If you have a Necro, what are his max (30 point) skills and his level?

I´ve started a new summon-only necromancer to give you some informations. ;)

When i reach a higher level i will write here how it works, at the moment i´m only level 22 in act2 poc.

Skills are planned something in this way:

skell-mastery max.
skell-warrior max.
skell-mages 1-?
summon resist max
2-3 golems (i don´t until now which)
1 point in poisondagger for killing in easier places to get summons faster at the start levels
playing with lr/ad/im or lifetap

merc will be an act3 lightning or cold merc (splash damage to support the blockers and single attacks)

[webwalker]

I´ve started a new summon-only necromancer to give you some informations. ;)

I am looking forward to hearing your results.

I run skelemancers, and the skeleton is OK  2 (13.3%)
I run skelemancers, and the skeleton is weak  6 (40%)
The skeleton is so weak I don't run skelemancers  4 (26.7%)
I don't like skelemancers, I like different necros (skeletons may help but aren't a major strength)  2 (13.3%)
I don't like necros.  1 (6.7%)

Poll result is 10:2 (10/12 is 83%) declare the skelton warrior to be weak, either significantly or excessively so.
I have found (single-play testing at home) that if you can get RS and SM above 70, that the skelliemancer works moderately well.  How to get 40 +skills from Nightmare available gear (because you need level 70 RS/SM to conquer the Inner Cloister & Cathedral) is a mystery.  Single play at home, I start up the game and dgo to work, then come home and kill World Event Diablo, quit & restart the game, and go to bed. In the morning I kill WED again, restart the game, and go to work...  After I got 3 Ubers (Armor, Belt, and Gloves) I had +15 skills where before I had +7, likewise my HF merc had +10 skills where before he had +5, and suddenly things worked.
I could not have done thins online.

skell-mastery max.
skell-warrior max.
skell-mages 1-?
summon resist max
2-3 golems (i don´t until now which)
1 point in poisondagger for killing in easier places to get summons faster at the start levels
playing with lr/ad/im or lifetap

1 point in skel mages suffices.  You'll have +40 skills to anvegate Hell, that will give you pleanty of mages.
Likewise 1 point in Revives, Summon Resists, and Skeletal Mastery.
Where (I have found) you must put evey spare point is in the poison or bone tree, because the skellies can't hack it.
If you tried for 7 golems and max RS/SM, that would be maxing 6 skills (180 points) which will be a touch accomplishment.

merc will be an act3 lightning or cold merc (splash damage to support the blockers and single attacks)

Cold Iron Wolves are my favorite, but I have a HF merc with Pride (for the skellies) and  Knights VIgil (because of that @*@*$*$% Disco Aura).

[ZenPdH]

Cube gd (+7), no style, but u want the skills ;)
Nec armor (3RS + 2allskills rw), don't know if SM is possible
Nec shield (2nec / 3RS / 3SM + terror rw)
Wand (2nec / 3RS / 3SM + Shadow of doubt rw)
Blood belt or something else with +2
Jewlery of the diva (+7)
____________________
= +18 allskills, +6 nec, +3 summoning, +9 RS, +6 SM (+3RS or 3SM from terror)
In the best situation +36 to RS & SM.
Some summoning skillers, l&d or queen's call and voila, +40!

All possible in lr and without any ubers or muled stuff.
Sure would it take some time to get all these things, but hey... Better than 'beating the system' and kill dc over and over again.
Just my opinion.


BTW are ubers possible in lr too. Found a soc at damien in the dg at the start of the ladder (old realm).
BTW2 Post 999, so don't take it too serious :s513:

[webwalker]

Cube gd (+7), no style, but u want the skills ;)

I have no idea what you're saying here.

Nec armor (3RS + 2allskills rw), don't know if SM is possible

RS/SM are possible affixes until you (gamble) or the item are level 24.  From then on, Raise Skeletal Mage is possible, but RS/SM are not.

Nec shield (2nec / 3RS / 3SM + terror rw)
Wand (2nec / 3RS / 3SM + Shadow of doubt rw)

+2 class skills is level 42, so +2 can't occur on the same item with RS/SM.

Blood belt or something else with +2
Jewlery of the diva (+7)
____________________
= +18 allskills, +6 nec, +3 summoning, +9 RS, +6 SM (+3RS or 3SM from terror)
In the best situation +36 to RS & SM.
Some summoning skillers, l&d or queen's call and voila, +40!

so this tops out at 35 or less.

BTW are ubers possible in lr too. Found a soc at damien in the dg at the start of the ladder (old realm).

soc?

I have finished hell with a skelemancer.  My vote remains that the skeleton warrior is weak.
A writeup of gear and skills follows soon.

[Fingerpicker]

GD=Götterdaemmerung, its an unique helm with up to seven skills but a -50 resi malus, SOC is Stone of Chaos- the uniqe uberring (SOE=Stone of Energy)
I dont play necros since a longer time, so i cant say much about it. (because they`re too weak haha) ;)
If you compare Nec with the ones in earlyer versions he `s weaker, but he was very strong...Cadaver Explosion through walls with the old was really too extreme...
Do you play on donators realm? (if yes i never see you because i dont play at night)
There are some nec players.
Maybe it would be interesting if the "old" chars from  open servers will be downloadable, i hope joe will make them downloadable soon.

[Fenris]

Maybe it would be interesting if the "old" chars from  open servers will be downloadable, i hope joe will make them downloadable soon.

ce said the will be downloadable when there is a ladderreset @ non-donators realm

[ZenPdH]

First of all, sorry for the abbriviations, thought these were known to everyone playing ce longer than 2 or 3 weeks.

Thought SM in ur post stands for Skeleton Mastery ::)

2.

RS/SM are possible affixes until you (gamble) or the item are level 24.  From then on, Raise Skeletal Mage is possible, but RS/SM are not.

Where can i find such info about automods?
Searched for those things on some d2-sites i know, but can't find such details.

Cube gd (+7), no style, but u want the skills

I have no idea what you're saying here.

GubbelGubbel said it allready, but here some more details to put some more light into it.

Spired helm + 15 perfect saphires + 1 (crap) doll = uniq spired helm
One of them is gotterdammerung. Normaly more than one try is needed to get a gd and even more to get one with +7... May the luck be with u ;)
The style thing is only, because i find it looks ugly on nearly every char ::)
But it has the most skills possible on a helm, so most players don't care about the style.


[Edit]
Sry for beeing offtopic, but u speak of the ladderreset...
Will the ladderreset on the non-donators-realm meaning the end of the non-donators-realm?
A little sprite whispered me something like that. Some thruth in it?
[/Edit]

[ChaosEmpire]

@brian
http://chaosempire.info/web/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,61/topic,13064.msg185793/topicseen,topicseen/,topicseen/#new

only german, probably you can read the item, baeline is, my change on donators realm yesterday makes skells to heavy...

[webwalker]

As Promised, and based on free/home realm:

End Condition: Baal dead in Hell
Stats: Str 165(111)/Dex 131(68)/Vit 744(524)/Nrg 154(126)/Spare 66
life 4464[9865](2719)/mana 1173[2292](415) nb: Normal[B.O.](Naked)
Skills: 
**Curses – All@ 44(1) except
    Amp Damage  46
    Decrepify 48(2)
    Lower Resists  46
**P&B – Teeth  49(1) 
    Bone Armor  52(1) 
    Poison Dagger  78(30) 
    Corpse Explosion  79(30) 
    Bone Wall & Bone Prison  51/0 
    Poison Explosion 52(4)
    Bone Spear & Bone Spirit 53(1)
    Poison Nova 78(30)
**Summoning – RS/SM/Blood Golem 75(30) 
    Fire Golem 53(8) 
    Summon Resists 49(1)
    All others 46(1)
**Imported skills –
    Static Field 49
    Battle Orders 41
    Valkyrie 39
    Teleport 41
    Raven 39
    Enchant 70
Other skills were not used in combat and are ignored here.
Army: 18 Skeletons (17 when I switch & cast B.O.), 16 Mages, 22 Revives, 15 Ravens, 3 fire golems, 1 Valk.
Gear:
Weapon:
Lust in a wand total +4 necro, +1 Bone Spear, +1 Lower Resist, +3 Summon Resist
Shield: Bone in a Head giving +4 necro +4 P&B +4 to Bone Spear, +3 to Spirit Prison Wall & Armor.
   (Alt Weapon & shield are Call To Arms in a +1 all +1 barb crafted flail, Sigon's shield)
Gloves: Hands of the Mummy +5
Armor: The Real Cow Leather +5
Belt: Band of Chaos Empire +4
Rings: Diva +2 with resists jewels
Ammy: Sigil of Hope (blank)
Hat: Siren's Song in a +2 necro circlet with 13% resist all
Boots: Lustwander Mirrored Boots giving +1 Skills +4 Teleport & all resists +25% (skilled for lower strength req)
Charms:
Puppenkeist:  (503 dolls, skills that affected questing listed)
    +2 Raven
    +1 Lower Resists
    +1 Corpse Explosion
    +2 Amplify Damage
    +2 Valkyrie
Teddy (+1 all, 5 times died to MS champion archer corrupted rogue teams in Cold Plains and Dark Wood)
Summoning: 2
Poison&Bone: 1
Remembrance of Glory: 5/20/17/5
Peacemaker: 5/5/25/16
Queen's Call: 1/20/10/10/41/14
Autumns Avatar: 3/3/12/11
Annihilus: 4/14/13/8
Resists are 94/94/94/94 in Hell (unless hit by Lower Resists).

Play Tactics:
Entered Hell at level 96 with no Ubers, proceeded at top speed (slowly) to Inner Cloister, got destroyed repeatedly (whole army wiped out in 30 seconds). 
Skill level RS/RM was approx 55/55 (about as high as can be gotten without ubers or EXTENSIVE item building).   
So: Farmed World Event Diablo (WED): Started game, got mob, went to bed.  Got up. Killed WED. Quit & restarted game, went to work.  Got home. Killed WED again, Quit & restarted game again.  Repeat for a week (otherwise spent item-building and gambling). By virtue of the Ubers thus acquired, Inner Cloister could be bypassed (partial killing instead of clearing) enough to dash down to Catacombs when RS/RM were about 60/60.  IC could be cleared with patience (multiple mob rebuilds) at 65/65 if auras were unfavorable.  warriors behind the chokepoint) can sometimes break the jam. EXTERME patience and either good tongue-control or a sound-padded room are mandatory.   At 70/70 IC could be cleared with first army (replacements as needed but no need to rush out to Cold Plains to rebuild).  At this point the whole game was steady progress, no major catastrophes like IC.  If you max Bone spells, confusion may help a great deal, it will draw monsters from great ranges to the fight, Corpse Explosion on the dead (or raising skeletal If you max Poison Nova, you'll use Lower Resists a great deal.

NOTABLE EXCEPTION TO ABOVE:
Many places have Teleport disabled.  This is called an anti-cheat feature, but, in reality it is an anti-skelemancer feature.  Teleport-disabled areas rob you of mob control.  You fight who the Mob chooses to fight, in the direction of their choosing and at their speed; otherwise you're leaving the mob, and running without protection in hopes of rebuilding in the direction you choose. Where the map has choke-points (doors, stairs, multiple necks) such as River of Flames, you just have to wait for the 1-3 mob members (might be mages) to kill the enemy in front of them (who might be immune to the attack).  Step back a few and open a TP, go to town & return & hope the mob members who meet the monsters are able to damage/kill the choke-point holder. Thus, the Plains of Dispair (hunting Izual) is a pain, but the River of Flames is a do-once-only game area.  Bloody Foothills can be done repeatedly and profitably, but the next two areas are not much fun.  You do need an Annihilus, however, so do them until you get a good one.

WHAT I WISH MOST (attempting to confine myself to mod-possible wishes):
1: That there were pro-skelemancer rune words comparable to the pro-boner rune words (e.g. White & Bone).
2: Disco was less common and less powerful, and Concentration was on super-uniques only.  Poison Nova takes 2 seconds to do its work, so once you get into a Disco aura, you have a few Nova's before you're empty.  IC and other target-rich areas typically have multiple Disco and Concentration auras, so your spell-casting ability is quickly negated, and you're dependent on the Mob doing the work against a mob-crushing force.  Alt: go back to town repeatedly and frequently to re-stock Mana pots; hope you don't have to give your merc too may Rejuves.
3: Multiple-Immunes were limited to 3.  Quad/quint immunes are frequently unkillable, especially where they have multiple auras.
4: Replace curse Iron Maiden with "curse" Slow Missiles and/or "curse" Cloak of Shadows.
5: Bone Spear, like Blade Fury, included (a portion of) weapon/equipment/charm damage so boners can leech life/mana.

[Fenris]

do u use any auras? if not you should do, help really much
(salvation and defiance help that your skeletons won´t be overrun and conzentration +fana +might will help you to kill faster (maybe you should use the nec schild rw with fana?)

and did you play on donators realm? i don´t think so, maybe u should try it cause of the changes

1. i agree
2. it´s an anti-caster feature so it´s working how it should
3. agree
4. that´s not possible, it´s hardcoded otherwise chaos would have changed it
5. nice idea

[webwalker]

do u use any auras?

Merc has Pride in a Cryptic Axe (Concentration), and Knights Vigil in a Greak Hauberk (Meditation to combat Disco), and Dream in a Tiara.
I have Lust in a wand for additional damage to multi-immunes.  Keep in mind that this was a mule-free build as it was my first at-home character since a clean-off-and-reload-Diablo event some time back.

and did you play on donators realm? i don´t think so, maybe u should try it cause of the changes

Not yet.

1. i agree
2. it´s an anti-caster feature so it´s working how it should  (Me: Mind putting that to a vote?)
3. agree
4. that´s not possible, it´s hardcoded otherwise chaos would have changed it
5. nice idea

Possibility?: The curse itself is a skill number, they range 1-210; the skill number for IM should be replaced with the skill number for Slow Missiles.

[T1001]

what typ of merc? dream on merc didnt make sense, because of very low damage. if you use an a5 merc give him the rw prowness in battle, so your skells will geht more ar and ias. if you use beast yourself for fanatism aura forget what iam saying :)

[ChaosEmpire]

brian, after the changes on donators realm all tell me..to powerfull...
s0p probably you should play a round with the guys online
i can give you a BoW, to get you a little bit fasster on top, probably there will someone spend items

[doom86]

Hey, for the problem on the tight spot combats with the skelletons in areas which you can't use teleport i use the following tactics:

1. Run thru the mosnters and then come back, hopefully some skelletons follow me intead of block the way for the other and ill have       a bigger part of my army in combat. But can't really use this tactic if the enemies are too strong that they could kill me running around them.

2. When some mages block the way for my other summons, i simply Unsummon them, unless there are too many, so i would have to unsummon half of my army to get the other half into battle.

3. Town portal is always a choice, as already said here.

4. Back off, and try to attract some of the enemies, so the whole summon pack can tackle the unfortunate ones that followed me.

And from what i can think now, i think that's it, just a few tips that maybe you guys do not use.

Also, i have a sugestion that could end this pain, or at least reduce a LOT of it, there could be a native skill (like unsummon) that would be a "teleport to current location", that is, a skill that the only thing it would do is to repack all of the summons/hirelings you may have close to you, just like a normal teleport would do. If it is possible, it would be wonderful xD

DooM

[Sorky]

@doom86

I like your suggestion of the teleport change.

If you could run your Necro, say one screen, then hit the teleport so that you didn't move, but it teleports your minions to you, now this could be really usefull.

Hans , can this be done?  It wouldn't change the way the necro moves, it just keeps his minions grouped.  I see a tactic where you could run up to a group, hit teleport, your minions teleport around you, you back off a bit, and let the battle you choose begin. 
This might be a compromise that all could live with and still keep the necro from using teleport for himself. 

It would solve the bottleneck problem with door ways and tight areas, like the maggot lair, santuary, which sucks for a summoner.  It is still dangerous, as you would have to move ahead of your skells to do this, but if it could be done, I think it would be a great help for the necro community.

ps:  Thanks for the necro love on donators realm, i have started a necro because of it.  I, like Brian, could not keep my skells alive to be of any use in CGS.  While it may be true in the really high skill point levels, the summoner may have been viable in cgs, it took Ubers to do it, and the summoner could not gather them to use them.  Catch 22

[Fenris]

the problem was that it is not possible to change teleport so it would be in non-teleport areas that u only tele a short way

but if chaos would copy teleport just like lightning fury it should be possible(well every item with teleport must be changed to the copied tele then)

[ChaosEmpire]

no, wont work, could misused as teleport skill

and teleportig itself range and possiility is set global in level settings not in skill settings

[webwalker]

teleportig itself range and possiility is set global in level settings not in skill settings

So... Range *CAN* be set?  Please NEVER disable teleport, but set the range to 1 where you must to stop cheating.

[doom86]

Maybe we could look for another event that packs the minions...

[ChaosEmpire]

@brian
if i set range to 1...all players can only teleport that range, no solution

[webwalker]

Ah! I mis-understood what I mis-read, hoping to see what I desired: that the max range for TPort was assignable per-level (bloodmoor vs Barraks vs etc). 

[ChaosEmpire]

yepp
it is possible to say...no teleport, only to next wall..or unrestricted, and you can change the amount how far teleport is possible...

but only generic for the level